Forum Archives
sparklemama
Posted: Jun-13-2005 at 3:12pm
I have a friend whos says I can come get as much cedar mulch as I would like. He runs a gravel/dirt pit here in town.
Is cedar bark mulch a good mulch to use in the garden. I have only used steer manure compost in the past. Does using it cause insect problems? I absolutely can't stand beauty bark, so if its anything like that it won't be coming home.
Gardening is the only therapy I can afford.
cjmiller
Posted: Jun-13-2005 at 8:55pm
I think they use cedar mulch for preventing growth on pathways, etc. but not in the garden. It smells good!
grammagt
JeanneK
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 8:10am
Yes, I've read that wood shavings, if that is what your cedar mulch is, have not decomposed yet and will pull the nutrients out your soil. That's why you want to use aged bark mulches for your beds.As Carol said, wood shavings are good for paths where you are not concerned about the soil. I find that it is hard to walk on the paths if the wood chips are too big.
Jeanne
sparklemama
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 9:38am
Really i never knew that it would pull the nutrients out of the soil. Hubby came home with less then a 1/2 yard the other day and i put some down on one of my small beds to see if i liked it or not. I had no idea that it was bad for the garden and only good for walk ways.
So i guess i had better get out there today and pull it off? To use it in walkways,I would have to cut up all the grass first and dig down a bit, then lay down plastic and then add the bark? Sorry if these are silly questions but i have not really done any hardscapes(or would that be a softscape..lol.) before. I don't have any pathways yet in the garden but I know where they should go. Between the dog and myself wearing the grass thin there are plenty to choose from..lol.
Gardening is the only therapy I can afford.
cjmiller
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 10:59am
Bummer! Hate un-doing hard work! Eat an extra large hunk of chocolate for consolation.
grammagt
Lisa A
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 12:35pm
I have also heard the concern that fresh wood chips rob the soil of nutrients. Because wood chips are high in carbon, they temporarily tie up nitrogen in the soil. You can compensate by applying nitrogen fert (organic options offer low risk of "burning" plants) to the area or put it over a layer of balanced mulch.
My mind is leaking like a sieve these days but I do recall hearing that wood chips on top of the soil aren't as much of a problem as wood chips mixed into the soil. I'll try to recall where I heard this (oh, if only the mind had a search feature like my computer) and check the facts.
Gardening in Sunset Zone 6, USDA Zone 8.
JeanneK
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 12:59pm
Don't panic, sparklemama! It has been my experience that if a bed has lots of compost and humus, the plants (particularly if they are natives) can probably handle a wood chip mulch. It's just that the bugs get so excited about chewing up the wood chips, they chew up everything else. You can leave the wood chips in the bed and supplement it or you can put the chips in the walkway.
You can dig up the grass, level and compact the path, put down landscape fabric so water can flow through your path and then put down the chips but that is a lot of work. Alternatively, you can put down newspaper or the landscape fabric right down on the grass and then put your chips down on that, provided you have enough chips to cover the path at about an inch to 2 inches thick. You need to kill the grass. This may raise your path above the beds. Are the paths going around beds or in the grass? People do like wood chips because weeds are less likely to invade the paths but you'll still get weeds.
Good luck!
Jeanne
sparklemama
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 1:33pm
Thanks so much for the help! I would def need a large source of chocolate for that job cj..lol. I really hate having to redo something I have done. Especially in the garden where it can take hours of backbreaking work to do in the first place. The plus side is that it usually doesn't take as long to undo it.
I guess I can leave the mulch on the bed and see how it does this summer. If it doens't work I can then take it out.
I am going to get some for the pathways though. The paths will be through the grass and along side a few beds. The majority of my beds are raised beds so they would be below the beds. The only thing I would worry about is if I didn't cut down into the grass there would be mulch flowing off the path into the grass.
Would I beable to add a nitrogen fert to just the top of the mulch or move the mulch around and put it on the dirt? Would COF be enough or higher nitrogen? Thanks again ladies I really appreciate all your knowledge.
Gardening is the only therapy I can afford.
cjmiller
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 2:38pm
Each spring we prune the fruit trees, chip up the results and use it in the paths of the garden. The chips don't seem to be the least bit interested in getting into the grass nor is there much evidence that it affects the grass growth. Once the chips are in place they dont seem to move much. Dandelions occasionally sprout in the paths, and that early spring weed that shoots its seeds every direction for 6 miles when touched will grow in it, but it has been a succesful use in recycling wood chips,keeps the paths well marked and attractive, plus those weeds are fairly easy to remove in a timely manner.
grammagt
Fern
Posted: Jun-14-2005 at 7:51pm
I would be a little worried that it is cedar. Doesn't it have oils in it that make it slow to rot and only a few plants that are adapted, like red huckleberries, use them as nurse logs? I know you are not supposed to eat even edible mushrooms if they are growing on cedar. Any wood chips can temporarly tie up the nitrogen. In paths sounds safer to me but you can always experiment.
Fern
Garden Spider
Posted: Jun-15-2005 at 6:25pm
Why would you not want to eat anything grown on cedar? Just curious--cedar planks are used in cooking (fish, mostly).
Barb
How she longed to get out of that dark hall and wander about among those beds of bright flowers and those cool fountains. --Lewis Carrol
Fern
Posted: Jun-15-2005 at 8:28pm
I do some mushroom hunting, I'm sure it has something to do with my love of identifing plants and because I like to eat mushrooms. I'm also very careful. Some good books say that some edible mushrooms that grow off decomposing wood, like the Honey mushroom, Armillariella mellea group, can cause digestive upsets if they are growing on western red cedar, hemlock, or buckeye. That is enough to make me look very closely. I've never been sick from any because, like I've said, I always check many resourses and never take any chances. Fungui are different than plants. I'm just guessing, but maybe the small amount of cedar oil in the fish doesn't make any difference. People use a small amount of juniper berries in cooking and I know it is bad for you in large amounts. Sage oil can also be toxic. Salt too.
Fern
Lisa A
Posted: Jun-15-2005 at 9:06pm
The dose makes the poison. Many things we eat in small quantities are toxic in large doses. eration is the key. Well, except for chocolate! Okay, okay, I know even that should be erated but, oh, that's so difficult!
Fern, I'm glad to read you are careful with mushroom ID. I heard a tale from a member of the Oregon Mycological Society that their president - a very knowledgable mycologist consulted often by Poison Control - made a serious ID error and ended up in the hospital. This is one of those cases where what you don't know could kill you.
You bring up an interesting point about plant uptake of cedar oils and whether this could be harmful. Since cedar is one of the woods recommended for raised beds, as well as cooking foods such as salmon, I would think it wasn't a problem. But perhaps chipped cedar is a different creature. I'll try to get a hold of someone I know with Kaiser Permanente's Poison Prevention and Education Department and see if he can answer this question for us.
Garden Spider
Posted: Jun-16-2005 at 6:17am
Lisa and Fern, what you both said makes sense to me--about Fungi being different creatures (they certainly are), and dose being the key (that certainly is true). So both of those facts together make me suspect that Fungi might be taking up a higher dose of toxins from their substrate? As opposed to a fish merely coming into contact with a cedar plank.
Lisa, I suspect that cedar boards--like a cedar cooking plank--would not be a problem in a riased bed, simply because the plants are not actively growing on the boards, and thus wouldn't take up any of the toxic oils.
I remember a Native American woman I worked with at the Aquarium telling us about how they ate herring roe (I think it was herring--can't remember exactly). They'd lay cedar branches in the shallow water where the fish were spawning, the eggs would cling to the branches, and they'd just pull in the branches. She said the roe had the taste of the cedar.
Barb
How she longed to get out of that dark hall and wander about among those beds of bright flowers and those cool fountains. --Lewis Carrol
JeanneK
Posted: Jun-16-2005 at 8:09am
Very interesting info, Barb, about catching the eggs with cedar branches. Great discussion on wood chips and toxic substances, btw!
Jeanne
Lisa A
Posted: Jun-16-2005 at 12:16pm
My contact with Kaiser Permanente Poison Prevention program was intrigued by my question prompted by our discussion. He was glad to assist us in our search for answers.
He gave me great information but he did say it was based on inferences drawn from his knowledge of related matters (which is sizable, this man knows a lot about plants and toxins). He also said he was basing this on the assumption that we are discussion western red cedar, not true cedars (which is what I assumed, as well). If we feel we need more information, he suggested we try the Forestry or Stone Fruits departments at OSU (or WSU, too).
To his knowledge, eating edibles grown in or around fresh cedar chips does not cause any problems. Edibles do not draw nourishment directly from cedar wood as mushrooms, a saprophytic organism (there's your $25 word for the day), do. Mushrooms actively digest cedar tissue, thus absorbing the oil, and raising concerns about eating these mushrooms. He reminded me that people eat red huckleberries, which grow on cedar nurse logs and stumps without any adverse reactions. In addition, Native Americans have been eating red huckleberries for centuries without any problems.
He mentioned the concern several of us already have said: the nitrogen draw from the soil (and thus, the plants) to feed the organisms that break down the fresh material. We've already discussed how to compensate for this concern.
He did say that there are documented cases of health problems among sawmill workers from exposure to cedar sawdust. 10-15% of workers experienced a rash; repeated exposures lead to disability. If you are susceptible, handling fresh cedar chips might be a problem, although cedar chips are not as fine as ground-up sawdust, which may reduce the chance of rash. However, there's no way to know for sure so it's best to take suitable precautions. I forgot to ask him what precautions to take but I would think it would be the same as for other dermatitis-causing plants: Wear long sleeves, long pants, wear gloves (in other words, cover your skin) and wash your hands with soap and water as soon as possible after exposure.
To his knowledge, this should be the only health concern with using fresh cedar chips in the garden.
Once the chips are thoroughly decomposed, dermatitis reactions should no longer be an issue. From my training as a KP Poison Prevention Garden Docent, I recall that the majority of plant toxins are rendered inert upon decomposition. The exception is poison oak - those oils last a very long time, even in dead wood.
He did say that if the chips are coming from treated cedar, then all bets are off. He would not use treated cedar chips because there is no way to know what the wood was treated with and what you were bringing into the garden.
I hope this helps!
Fern
Posted: Jun-16-2005 at 8:44pm
I was wondering about the cedar oils. Do you think it affects plants? Is there a reason why mostly huckleberreis use them as nurse logs?
Fern
Lisa A
Posted: Jun-16-2005 at 9:37pm
Red huckleberries, like many others in the ericaceae family, develop a mychorrizal relationship with decaying wood. While you will often find them growing in nature on cedar stumps or nurse logs, you can establish them in the garden with my fake stump trick with wood other than cedar. This leads me to believe it isn't the oil that is critical but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Do you think it affect plants?" What are you referring to by "it"?
You sure ask some tough questions, Fern! But that's how we learn so it's all good.
Gardening in Sunset Zone 6, USDA Zone 8.
Fern
Posted: Jun-16-2005 at 10:45pm
I'm just a curious person, I guess, I always like to ask "Why?". I don't expect anyone to have all the answers, what fun would that be? I was just thinking about how most cedar nurse logs I've seen don't have as many plants on them as other nurse logs. Maybe because they decompose slower? Maybe the cedar oil makes it hard to take up nutrients? Maybe the mychorrizal relationships aren't right? Doesn't that realtionship help with nutrient uptake? I really don't expect answers. We have alot of big, old cedar stumps in our woods, I wish they were living trees. We did plant some babies. I'll look at them more closely next time I go out there.
Fern
sparklemama
Posted: Jun-17-2005 at 9:35am
Thanks for all the great information lisa! When i was putting down the cedar mulch i did notice that my arm was itching and a little red. Couldn't figure it at first but them I realized it was from the mulch. I was reaching into the bag to pull out the mulch and my skin didn't like that to much. It was only on the underside of my forearm though, the more senstive skin i guess.
But so far no negative effects on the plants. I will leave it on the rest of the year to see how the plants do. My friend had said that the mulch was aged but didn't say for how long or what kind of cedar.
I am glad we were able to get so much information and questions on this post!
Gardening for the Homebrewer: Grow and Process Plants for Making Beer, Wine, Gruit, Cider, Perry, and More
By co-authors Debbie Teashon (Rainy Side Gardeners) and Wendy Tweton